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Episode 133: The Indoor Kids
Motivation Farming with Dan …
The Indoor KidsThe Indoor Kids

The Indoor Kids #133: Motivation Farming with Dan Harmon

Today the Kids welcome back Dan Harmon to talk about Community, other TV he’s watching, and the video games he currently has the headspace for. Plus we talk news with Burnside!

Battlefield 4, Borderlands 2, Candy Crush Saga, The Banner Saga, Nintendo World Championship, Batman: Arkham Origins: Blackgate, Paint Dryer, Assassin’s Creed 4, Assassin’s Creed 4, Tetris, Pac Man, God of War, Halo, The Sims, Minecraft, GTA, NBA 2K14, Zelda: A Link Between Worlds, Terraria, Junk Jack, Junk Jack X, Hay Day, Township, Resident Evil, Fallout: New Vegas, D&D, Skyrim

Community, The Walking Dead, True Detective, Hannibal, Enlisted, Cougertown, Rick and Morty, The Meltdown, Curb Your Enthusiasm, Better Off Dead, Mr. Show

Her, The Wolf of Wall Street, Zodiac, Gravity, Seven, Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit


Tour dates for Kumail, Jonah and Emily in January and February!

Buy Indoor Kids merch!

Follow @matthewburnside on Twitter!

Follow @indoorkids@kumailn, and @thegynomite on Twitter! And email us at [email protected]!

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  1. Ichabod Mansfield Asbury Trevor Wilhelm Achilles Tanenbaum says:

    It’s The Catcher IN the Rye you illiterate illegitimate idiot. Maybe you SHOULD read it.

  2. GooseGanja says:

    @(whatever comedian from cali who wrote the top comment) … You lost me at scum water haha. Scott Auckerman? What? Dont read Catcher and the Rye either dude … yikes.

  3. Ichabod Mansfield Asbury Trevor Wilhelm Achilles Tanenbaum says:

    Aw, how cute. A lover’s quarrel.

    To tell the truth you’re both kind of appalling. RG, your gross overuse of commas alone makes me vomit in my mouth a little bit.

    What everyone keeps trying to explain to you nitwits is that of course you have a “right” to say whatever you want to whomever you want whenever you want. Duh shit, motherfuckers. The Westboro Baptist Church also has a “right” to picket the funerals of US soldiers with signs that say “GOD HATES FAGS” in letters a foot high.

    To quote The Dude: “You’re not wrong. You’re just an asshole.”

    You’re both the most cringe-worthy, whiny, self-defending, pathetic losers I’ve ever seen on the internet and that’s really a feat. I congratulate you.

    Every time somebody points out that you should take accountability for the way you come off to people you fall back on this shitty argument about how what you said wasn’t even that bad and people should just shrug it off. RG, like 7 people characterized what you said as an attack, including Kumail. Even if you didn’t mean for it to come off that way don’t you see that it did? Don’t you see that you’re partially responsible for that? That you could’ve taken responsibility for the effect that your words would have and attempted to express what you wanted to say without being abrasive? You filled your entire post with swear words and basically told Kumail and Emily that they exacerbated your depression and anxiety. Jesus. I hope you’re a bit less hostile with your wife and you don’t hold your emotions hostage like that when you argue with her. You must drive her fucking nuts.

    And then Kumail totally takes the high road and apologizes to you if he mis-characterized your post – which apparently was an easy thing to do considering all of the other people that did as well – and instead of offering him an apology for the tone of your post you give him a lecture about analyzing negative posts for positive intent on his own message board? That’s not his fucking job! You’ve got some chutzpah, bro. You must need a wheelbarrow to carry those balls around. If some random jagoff hands you a glass of water with a layer of scum over the top of it you’re not gonna drink it, asshole, even if you’re thirsty, which, in this case, Kumail was not. It’s not your job to peel the scum off and pour it through a filter for “your own peace of mind”. Get fucking real. Auckerman created a fucking monster.

    Get this through your thick fucking skulls: It’s not that you had negative things to say that bothered anyone. It’s the way you said them. Take some responsibility for the way you present yourselves you sickening manboys.

    Now I fully expect another avalanche of self-defending dipshittery, but hopefully you can find the silver lining in my post instead of magnifying the source of my negativity or whatever crackhead bullshit you were trying to peddle up there. Dumbfucks.

  4. RG says:

    Wait… So that other guy laid into you, and you’re going after me now?

    Yikes. I didn’t “go back on” anything. I was clear and calm in my further explanation, and that came across. You, however, continued to antagonize. I don’t know what you expect, and I don’t know what beef you have with me, but whatever, man.

  5. GooseGanja says:

    Its fukn Amurika dammit … i can say whatever and disagree with whatever I want. You guys have a right to shit on me in response … but dont act like I put this podcast in jeopardy. Thats not on me thats on Kumail and Emily. Grow the fuck up and grow a thicker skin. If saying “fuck you” affected so many people … thats weird!? How the hell do you function with conflict in real life.

    @RB – Your fuckn weird and a wonky dude … Do us all a favor and never read Catcher And The Rye.

    @Everyone else – mmmk

  6. GooseGanja says:

    @RB – I might be an ass but at least I didnt go back on everything I previously said like the pleab you seem to be. As soon as your “daddy” shit on you bent over backwards for him … makes me sick. With you comments alone … they could be in to an essay for an indepth look into a future serial killer. Your a basket case dude … get some help.

  7. RG says:

    You obviously haven’t read anything I’ve written. The majority of this was me defending myself against other commenters who had very elaborate ways of trying to tell me that there was no room for negative comments about something I otherwise enjoy. At times, it even turned into a rather thoughtful debate about the host/audience dichotomy and how perceptions become skewed between the two, and how my side of this actually reached resolution in the end. Seeing as you’re a fan of Harmontown, I would think open discussion would be a virtue for you, but I guess not. Anyway, I had nothing to do with GooseGanja’s comment. They were two incredibly different things.

    But you’ve overlooked all that, and you called me a loser for not having the same outlook as you. Seems like you’re really passionate about the value of being nice. Well, if you’ll take note, I never indulged in any name-calling in my comment, and its intensity–language included–only came from my disappointment as a fan.

    Maybe next time you could think about what it does to people to call them losers and try to shame them, and you could ask yourself if that really encourages making things any better.

  8. DefenderOfTheFaith says:

    I count down the days until the next Indoor Kids and Harmontown podcasts.
    Sad as some may think it to be, they’re the highlight of my week and I look anxiously look forward to them.
    It makes me both sad and angry to see a couple of losers (RG and GooseGanja) putting this podcast in jeopardy.
    Obviously you guys have nothing better to do than debate and debate on a comment section. That’s also quite sad. Exchange emails and debate privately if you want, unless you’re ok with the rest of the world seeing how pathetic you are typing paragraph after paragraph on the justifying your shitty behaviour.

    @GooseGanja, you’re a fucking piece of shit. Hopefully you mature and get a life, or stop posting here.

    In the hopes that Kumail may see this, I’d like to suggest maybe charging for the podcast, $0.99c or $1 or something. I’d be happy to pay as I feel it’s more than worth it.
    Maybe that will invite more people to feel entitled to bitch about things, but the upside to that would be a bit of cash in your pocket.
    Just a thought.

    @GooseGanja, once again, fuck off you piece of shit.

  9. RG says:

    GG, maybe what you said was overblown, but it was still a jab. You’ve said some very reasonable things too, but it’s hard to sell those when they’re mixed in with jabs.

    Kumail, it’s all good. You’re blowin’ up, and I’m happy for you guys. There’s no justification for people being assholes to you, but just try to remember that not everybody is MADE of asshole–and I don’t say that for their sake, but for your own peace of mind. Positivity is like looking at a great finished painting: it’s pleasant, but you can only look for so long. With negativity, there’s more to analyze, because we want to figure out how to get rid of it. We’re all reacting to different sources of negativity in much the same way, and that reality sucks, but hopefully we can all find a silver lining next time and not set ourselves back by magnifying its source. I’m guilty of that too, despite my best intentions.

  10. GooseGanja says:

    Regardless .. good luck on your Meltdown show.

  11. GooseGanja says:

    @Kumail – Sexist? I mentioned she got married … so marriage is exclusive to just women? Sounds like a homophobic thinking to me huh. You dont have anything to say to me … you just did bro .. so?

  12. Kumail Nanjiani says:

    RG, I apologize if I misunderstood your intention and tone. We’re about to go into production on our TV show and both Emily and I are extremely stressed out and overworked. We look to this podcast as a means to relaxation and positivity and perhaps I over reacted to the negativity.

    gooseganja, you said fuck you to my wife and collapsed her entire existence and opinions into ” being married to a comedian.” I have nothing to say to you.


  13. GooseGanja says:

    Fuck you … there ya go.

  14. RG says:

    I know, I just didn’t want my attempt to offer some objective understanding to be undermined by you kind of saying “fuck you” again… albeit theoretically.

  15. GooseGanja says:

    @RG – i was speaking to what kumail said not what u said.

  16. GooseGanja says:

    @RG How was i “egging you on” … we were just talking, right?

  17. GooseGanja says:

    @RG – its been over 18 years since ive read the Hobbit. Mikey made a good point yesterday … most of the CG creatures you see are goblins slaves in orchish armor commanded by orch generals. The only time orcs show up in the Hobbit book was in the Gandolf describes the great war with humans orcs and elves in front of the mountain were Smaug lives. The main badies in the book were goblins trolls and giant spiders.

  18. RG says:

    Hey, you said that, not me. Let’s try and give the benefit of the doubt; Kumail and Emily don’t know that we’re not just CG orcs behind keyboards, and I get that it can feel that way. But we do need some delineation here… again: human beings.

  19. GooseGanja says:

    @RG – i dont know why we are lumped together in this. We both have different issues. Everyone keeps referring to “fuck you” I said, and im flattered, but looking back … was saying fuck you really that bad considering the response I got from several people and the creator. I didnt degrade them as human beings just a few of there views. I didnt tell anyone to kill themselves or call them bitter and pathetic. Fuck you may have been more apropriate now than earlier.

  20. RG says:

    I just reread my first comment, and, trying to be objective… I’m sorry, but it really wasn’t that bad. I didn’t say anything about you as people.

    Wasn’t making a huge deal with the depression thing; I’m simply one of those cautious people who DOES deal with depression but can conquer it by being very careful about what I take in. So, it’s just hard when I have to let something go from my routine because it has started bumming me out. But… I got jumped on by everybody because it was negative, just the same as if I HAD said “fuck you.”

  21. RG says:

    I didn’t even notice Kumail’s comment.

    Kumail, I’m sorry I caught you off-guard. However, in the beginning, I didn’t say anything about you as a person, as you’ve tried to claim. I didn’t say anything about you, any more than you said something about Peter Jackson. Yes, I said something TO you, but making a big distinction about that is fallacious; everything either of us has said is public and accessible. The closest I came to saying anything about you as a person was when I tried to give you an idea of my history with the content you’ve produced, and that was intended–admittedly backhandedly–as a positive statement.

    And since then, all I’ve said is that I think there’s a double standard about how you guys take criticism. I don’t think you’re a horrible person. I think you’re probably very sensitive, especially when faced with unfamiliar people/entities, and I think that translates into there being some flaws in how you view/handle your audience. You’re right about GG having been offensive, but just because he was offensive, it doesn’t mean your reaction has been balanced with regard to the audience as a whole.

    Note that none of this has to do with my initial complaint. I’m not railing against you for the themes of the show (though I don’t appreciate that you’ve reduced my complaint to, “You said mean things about a thing I like!” when it was simply an example of how “fuck this, fuck that” shitting on stuff that has become more ubiquitous on your show). No, since then, the talk has become all about whether we can bring up negative things about your otherwise-great show, and whether that’s somehow going to be a big deal that gets brought to Twitter or to the next podcast.

    I’m also not “teaming up” with GooseGanja, beyond the fact that we both got the same weird rage-reply. GG and I both went overboard in different ways. However, ultimately, I think you would feel better about these things if you didn’t assume the worst of every negative commenter, and just realize one thing:

    Sometimes, you are to us what Peter Jackson is to you.

    You guys said the Hobbit made you mad; that’s not just a review, man. Don’t backpedal! That’s disappointed fandom. That’s nerd-rage. And yunno what? That’s what an episode of your podcast did for us. We may be pathetic, but we’re not trolls. We said something about your podcast, you know you’ve said things about other people… that’s just how it goes. I just think it might help everybody if you think of us as human beings.

  22. GooseGanja says:

    @Kumail – I never apologized for anything but the fowl language I used. I sent you and Emily an honest apology through twitter about saying “fuck you”. Less than 15 minutes later you tweeted … “You always win against trolls because you’re not lonely and bitter and obsessively commenting on something you hate.”
    Coincidence … no way. How is calling me “lonely and bitter” any better? Do you think thats why Joe and Goat kept adding thoughtful comments to the page .. or the other people that added cool things to say, because they are “obsessive”? If so .. why did you come back? Id say thats a big reason why I returned to this page to continue the convo. You said sorry for not responding to the posotive peoples comments and then immediately dedicate several paragraphs to RG and me. It all comes back to hypocrisy. We don’t have a podcasts with thousands of listeners so we come in here and express our dislikes with other listeners and enjoy hearing their response .. deal with it and stop calling everyone trolls (you sound like a robot).

  23. RG says:

    I mean, dude, even GG’s comment was impolite, but it wasn’t TROLLING. I’m a person who makes things with my hands for a living too, and yeah, what she said was still messed up regardless of whether GG addressed it properly or not. That’s the kind of double-standard I’m talking about.

    Exaggerated example: If somebody said something racist and somebody else called them out for it, how attractive would it be if they went to Twitter and said, “Boohoo! I’m getting trolled!”? Just deal with it, dammit. If you’re saying that’s not a fair thing to say, you’re then validating emotional responses and negating your prior argument. People can do something wrong, and I can call it out.

  24. RG says:

    Yunno, you’re really taking what I said out of context. I was not “holding them responsible” for my emotional response to the show. I’m not mentally ill, as you seem to have assumed. I was NOT telling them that it was their responsibility to make such an appeal to the audience, but simply that they INCIDENTALLY had that power at one time; yes, it’s a backhanded compliment to say that that’s changed, but it’s something I’ve said to lots of different entertainers and podcasters in my time–and have said to Kumail and Emily in the past–and it always seems to mean something to people (for instance, when my wife and I had a puppy that died, I wrote Scott Aukerman and told him that Comedy Bang Bang had helped us get our minds off it, and he wrote me back genuinely moved, saying I’d reminded him that he’s not just doing silly meaningless stuff for a living. Ever since I’ve tried to tell people what their work really means to me).

    So when I say that it no longer does that, it doesn’t mean I hold them responsible for that. It was merely coloring my statement to make it known that I’m not just… yep, you guessed the word: a troll. I was pissed, but I was not a troll. The show has changed, for the better for some and for the worse for others, but if you want to talk about responsibility, it’s not the audience’s responsibility to just love everything they do.

    And what it comes to is this: Your defense of Kumail and Emily is almost certainly more complex than their ACTUAL response to negative comments. It often feels like every ounce of negativity is considered trolling. I’m not asking them to change that, but I’m calling it like I see it; for instance, they’re fans of the Hobbit and are entitled to their opinion of it, and I’m a fan of them and I’m entitled to mine. Agreed? So bear with me here: Peter Jackson has almost certainly SEEN the complaints about the Hobbit. The difference is, he’s not bitching about trolls on Twitter. That’s called professionalism.

    Now, please don’t accuse me of DEMANDING professionalism from Kumail and Emily. Again, I’m simply calling it like I see it. It’s a personality flaw that makes me like them less, and it makes me not want to listen to their podcast. Whether that’s an emotional reaction or a technical one doesn’t make a lick of difference. End of story.

  25. Joe Friday says:

    “Yes, Kumail and Emily can say whatever they want. But they’re putting themselves out there, and criticism is the pricetag on their pedestal. It’s not charity work. So, let’s stop trying to protect fragile Kumail and Emily, shall we?”

    Sure. OK. I just think there’s a difference between “criticism” and trying to tell entertainers that they’re responsible for your emotions because they shared an opinion you didn’t agree with. I also think when you’re making said criticism you should do so with an understanding that you’re giving criticism anonymously as an audience member whereas when they give theirs it’s in public with full names and attached. Zero accountability vs. total accountability. I know you’d like to equate the two, but it’s just not the same thing.

  26. RG says:

    Look, again, I never asked anything to change.

    There’s a cyclical thing happening here where, on principle, the things you use to defend the hosts must also defend my ability to criticize them. Dan (of whom I’m a huge fan, but who is occasionally and self-admittedly undermined by his own dogma) saying that it’s OK to complain about the nerd media you’re getting goes both ways. It also justifies my ability to complain here, about this.

    I didn’t say that a conversational podcast isn’t entertainment. It’s just that when you compare it to something like, say, Comedy Bang Bang (which is more of a performance), this is less structured, and yeah, less professional. That’s no dig; they’re making the podcast they want to make, and by choice, it’s looser and less professional.

    So the more I get into this, the more I have to just call it: Yes, Kumail and Emily can say whatever they want. But they’re putting themselves out there, and criticism is the pricetag on their pedestal. It’s not charity work. So, let’s stop trying to protect fragile Kumail and Emily, shall we? I could go on about how I’m no troll, but in the end it wouldn’t matter whether I’m one or not, because trolls still exist. It’s time to start shrugging shit off.

  27. Joe Friday says:

    A lopsided form of communication, huh? I suppose if you loosely define ALL media as a lopsided form of communication then this definition works perfectly. People on the creative side deliver communication to a lot of people, and then some of those people give feedback on the quality and content of the communication. If you’re looking to narrowly define all conversational style podcasting as merely “a lopsided form of communication”, however, and not acknowledge it as a valid form of entertainment I think that’s a bit reductive. Conversational podcasting is entertainment.

    Let me put it this way. I think we can agree that standup comedy definitely qualifies as entertainment. A comic stands on stage and talks to an audience with the assistance of a microphone. Sometimes he or she is doing material that they’ve written beforehand; other times they’re riffing and talking about things that come up in the moment and improvising jokes based on what’s happening in the room. Conversational podcasting is essentially the same. You still have someone standing on a virtual stage, they’re still talking to an audience with the assistance of a microphone, sometimes they’re discussing prepared topics and other times they’re going off the written page and letting a free-flowing conversation happen. Whether it’s in podcasting or in standup the fact that the parties involved know that they’re producing entertainment affects the finished product. A standup comic isn’t the same onstage as he or she is offstage and a conversation with Kumail and Emily in person would be much different from an episode of the The Indoor Kids.

    I don’t have to use standup comedy by the way. I can make the same comparison using scripted television, stage plays, movies, radio talk shows, reality TV, etc. It’s a lopsided form of communication in the same way that any form of media is, but it’s also so much more. The point is, just because you think you can do some version of it too doesn’t mean it’s not a valid form of entertainment and it doesn’t mean that there aren’t a thousand difficult things you’re not thinking of that go into producing it that make it the quality product that it is with as many listeners/viewers as it has.

    Now here’s where I think the root of a lot of your conflict comes from: As for complaints being invalid, no complaint is invalid about any form of entertainment from the perspective of the complainer. Everyone gets to have an opinion and nobody needs anybody else in the entire world to validate their opinion except for themselves. All opinions, including opinions about other people’s opinions, are subjective by their very nature. If I say I think a major Hollywood celebrity is a bad actor, for example, that’s my opinion. If you think he’s a great actor then that’s your opinion. If you think that my opinion is invalid, then that’s your opinion about my opinion. That doesn’t change my opinion, and it doesn’t change my opinion about my opinion. We can disagree about the validness about my opinion, and neither one of us is objectively wrong because that’s not how opinions work. Opinions are always subjective, never objective, and are therefore never “wrong” or “right”. They’re simply one person’s interpretation of facts.

    In that light, why would anyone get mad over anyone else’s opinion? If I disagree with you then I can say “You’re wrong for thinking that,” but that’s obviously not correct. In that instance, what I’m really saying is “I think you’re wrong.” Whether or not I actually use those words, that’s the case. At that point it’s your choice to agree with me or disagree with me based on the validity of the facts I use to support my opinion. Facts can be true or false, opinions are based on facts, and you can change your opinion if you find that some of the facts you were using to support your opinion are false or if you come across new facts that you were previously unaware of. The facts are objective, but the opinions are not, and although they’re closely related and easy to confuse, they’re not the same thing.

    So when Dan Harmon says this or that about why he thought the Hobbit wasn’t as good as it could’ve been, that’s his opinion informed by his thoughts, his experiences, his culture, his life. If Kumail and Emily agree with him, again those are their opinions based on their own separate points of view. They’re not right, they’re not wrong, they’re not trying to prove that anything is objectively bad, and they’re certainly not saying that anyone is dumb if they believe differently (and even if they were, again, that would be their own opinion which you’re under no obligation to take on as your own). They’re simply stating an opinion from their point of view and presenting the facts that support those opinions. If you feel differently, then great! You disagree! A disagreement with “cool Los Angeles people” is no reason to feel dumb. Your opinion is just as valid to you as theirs is to them.

    The only reason there are podcasts at all is because there are opinionated people in the world and other people who want to hear those opinions. Regarding your reference to the wall going up, based on what he actually wrote I think the wall specifically went up when Kumail read GG’s “fuck you” comment, but hypothetically even if it was also a reaction to yours, it might be because you came on a little bit strong.

    In my last post I talked about roles and the amount of work that each person puts into a relationship. Let’s say you had a relative living with you for an extended period of time. They’re a bit down on their luck, but they’re still employed part time and can afford basic expenses. As part of the agreement you make when they move in they agree to pay fifty bucks a month to help out with the groceries and the utilities. It’s something, but it’s only a tiny, tiny, fraction of the monthly expenses, and nowhere near what you would actually charge for rent if they weren’t related to you. Now let’s say that one Saturday afternoon this person had an issue with the volume at which you watched the TV in your living room because they were trying to read a book and it was distracting them. Even if they asked you to turn it down in the most polite and respectful way possible, it’s still a concession on your part because it’s your TV, it’s your house, and you should be able to listen to it at any volume you want. They could literally go anywhere else in the world, the library, the park, Starbucks, a bookstore, and not be distracted by your TV. You didn’t ask them to come live with you and be affected by your TV, right? But let’s say that instead of acknowledging the nature of the living situation and the financial situation in their attempt to speak to you about it, let’s say instead that they approached you a bit more intensely. Let’s say they started with “RG, man, I want to like you so much but every goddam time I start to read a book you turn on your goddam TV!” I imagine you’d be a bit put off and some walls would go up.

    I think that, as the entertainer, as the person who has the temerity to put his name and his face and his opinion out there for people to judge regardless of the consequences and make himself a figurative egg target, Kumail has a right to expect a bit of respect from the audience whose only function is to sit there and pay attention. He’s doing at least 95% of the work. If an audience member is going to criticize a performer, then the tone of their complaint should at least convey the understanding of their minimal contribution to the relationship. If you’re being rude to, or demanding of, an entertainer then I’d have to image that, at best, in his or her eyes you’re being presumptuous. At worst you’re going to be viewed as a troll. Probably depending on how that particular entertainer is feeling that day and it would be no different for you if you were in their position. Can you imagine if people walked by you all day at your job and criticized you if they thought you were doing it wrong? I would go insane. If Kumail doesn’t put the wall up at some point, then the eggs that get thrown don’t hit a wall. They hit him. And he literally can’t do his job figuratively covered in eggs. That’s the function of a wall in the first place, protection.

  28. Kumail Nanjiani says:

    Oh GooseGanja, you also reduced Emily’s entire existence to “having married a comedian.” Hope you’ll one day realize how reductive, offensive and sexist that is.


  29. Kumail Nanjiani says:

    Ok one last time.

    GooseGanja, when did I call you a troll on twitter? Although that is what you are. You told “Fuck you” to my wife. And then apologized for it. And now you and RG are spinning yourself into some kind of self-righteous rage. You do not get to say “Fuck You” to my wife and then act as if that’s an ok thing to do. You know it was wrong. You apologized. And now you are back to defending it. And you also don’t get to call me immature after saying “Fuck You” to my wife.

    RG, we said we did not like The Hobbit. We did not make any personal attacks on Peter Jackson. I hope you understand the difference between that and making negative presumptions about us as human beings. When someone reviews something, the implicit understanding is that it is their opinion. The first sentence of every New York Times review doesn’t start with “In my opinion.” Because that is implied. If I say The Hobbit sucks, nobody in their right mind would think I’m making an objective statement. I’m clearly stating my opinion. I am sorry you are having issues in your personal life that are causing you to have bad days. You should try and fix them or go see a therapist. Attacking people you say you are a fan of is not the best course of action.

    I messed up an checked this comment thread again and found two people egging each other on. I don’t understand. Why is it such a threat for you to have people disagree with you? Be secure in the things you like. Like them even if other people dislike them. And then I find GanjaGoose going back to defending himself saying horrible things about Emily, after profusely and seemingly sincerely apologizing for it.

    This is pointless. Thank you for all the positive people who listen to our podcast. It is unfair that I don’t reply to you but do reply to the negative ones. Emily and I are extremely busy people and unfortunately the negative comments seem to have a bigger impact than the positive ones. Something about human nature I guess. But us stating our opinions does not open you guys up to personal attacks on us, or to make presumptions about us as people.

    The Hobbit sucks,


  30. bsg says:

    This is the Darkest comment thread

  31. RG says:

    GG: Yeah, it’s just kind of a thing where we’re going a step further and analyzing our feelings about it, but the fact is, it makes us get exasperated and find the reactions to be silly/imbalanced… and if we’re sitting here analyzing it, odds are, there are more out there who aren’t willing to do that, who will simply become bigger trolls.

  32. gooseganja says:

    @RG … they basically ask for it by calling out their fans and referring to their critical fans as “trolls” on a regular basis. Never considered myself a troll and this is by far the most commenting Ive done on any form of media ever … but since Kumail called me a troll on twitter (real mature btw) I might just take up that role proudly just for this podcast. I wont im just saying thats how those two keep fueling the “troll” fire as i was.

  33. RG says:

    Put another way: At what point does a host check him/herself in conversation, and instead of saying “All these people must just be immature children,” and go, “Oh shit, our show attracts more “trolls” than most other shows… Maybe we should either decide to be a little LESS casual and bite our tongues a little bit more, or just get a thicker skin and shrug it off?” At what point do you say, “Oh, these people are getting mad at something I said, just the same as I’m getting mad at the things THEY said! Maybe I was the immature one at that moment?” Regardless of responsibility, I just wonder if that thought ever comes up, and if any of this is just anything other than instant rage.

    Joe, everything you’ve said is very well-reasoned and seems quite peaceful, but it also puts a wall around Kumail and Emily to the point that it basically doesn’t MATTER what anybody says, and for some, that encourages it even more. If there’s no wall, there’s nothing to throw the egg at. Though my issue was an honest one, your approach can actually result in MORE surfacey, inconsiderate trolls.

  34. GooseGanja says:

    @joe and @rg – this is the most insightful back n forth ive ever had in a comment page. Lets make a point to continue this every week in the IK comment page. 🙂

  35. RG says:

    GG: I wasn’t saying you were trolling; just that you probably didn’t provide enough evidence up front that you aren’t a troll.

    Joe: Well, I think you might have misunderstood my reason for breaking that down. I did point out that I was only comparing it to a friendship because that’s the simplest comparison to draw, and indicated later on that, no, the reason it’s complicated is that it’s specifically NOT a friendship, that it is a lopsided form of communication. Mind you, that’s not a jab at it, and not meant to frame it in a negative light; just an honest appraisal.

    And that’s where the reality of the product comes in. I don’t think this sort of casual conversation podcast elevates itself to the point that all complaints leveled against it are invalid. It’s quite loose, and the fact that it’s a conversation only serves to stimulate more conversation. That’s basically why I wasn’t asking for anything to change (because perhaps that IS too bold), but simply expressing frustration. And in that, I honestly don’t think I’m wrong here. It got something off my chest, and was met with a response that didn’t really try to get where I was coming from (whether I deserve that consideration or not is irrelevant). Thing is, I find that response to be just as valid and justified as anything I’ve said. I’m sorry it created a schism and left some bad feelings, but my point was that those feelings were only bad because of the lopsidedness of this form of communication.

    In the end, while my wife and I listened to the podcast, it made us feel dumb for liking the Hobbit because “cool LA people and Dan Harmon say it’s bad writing and that we’re just putting up with it like lemmings.” Maybe that’s wrong, maybe that’s a vestige of being bullied our whole lives, but if we were made to feel that way, on a human level, it’s really not justified for others to try and censor me and essentially say, “The hosts have the right to process the negative feelings you caused them incorrectly because they’re the hosts, but let me explain to you how you’ve processed YOUR feelings incorrectly.” No, on a human level, I can say they got it wrong and hold them accountable. They don’t have to listen to me, but I can say it. Either I can say that, or you can’t say anything you just said.

    The fact is, I’m also tired of hearing Kumail and Emily build up the shame construct that’s beginning to rule our society (when you say, “Fuck these kinds of people, they’re bad people for being this way,” it hinders the education of the ignorant and pushes people farther away). But I didn’t mention that to begin with. I only mention it now to show you that I didn’t simply unfurl my whole tapestry of shit on them. But the wall went up, and I essentially said to myself, “OK, I see how it is…” until people started coming in, telling me I didn’t have the right to say what I said to begin with.

  36. GooseGanja says:

    Also … holy crap … those were a bunch of goblins not orcs. I didnt think about it but that explains how they looked and moved. Good fukn point Mikey.

  37. Joe Friday says:

    I think I see what you’re saying RG. You seem like a really thoughtful, intelligent, nice person and I can see why you’d be less than thrilled about the hosts of a podcast that you enjoy shitting on a franchise that you also enjoy. You invite the things you love close to your heart and this podcast is no exception, I think. In a way it might be an extension of the dynamic I was describing in my previous comment.

    That said, your view of the audience/performer relationship is a bit overbearing, in my opinion, and you seem to put a lot of the burden of the relationship on the performer. You compare it to a friendship, for example, friendship being a specific relationship between two people where there’s an implied sense of equality both in what people bring to the table and what they take away. That’s not this. If you want to truly compare the audience/performer relationship to a friendship you’d have to include the added elements of one friend putting a massive amount of work, time, dedication, courage, and love into the relationship while all the other friend has to do is sit there, watch, and tell the first friend how well he or she is doing. That doesn’t seem like much of a friendship to me.

    No this is something else entirely. In every relationship we play a role. You, RG, are an individual with your own thoughts and feelings and every person in the world that you encounter is just like you in that regard. But in order to make society work we need guidelines, customs, manners, social cues…things that make it easier to understand what’s expected of us and what we can expect from others. Roles. You wouldn’t treat your boss the same as you do your wife because your role as an employee is different from your role as a husband. You wouldn’t expect your doctor to treat you the same way your grandmother treats you because they have different roles in your life and different functions to perform. We can also play different roles at the same time and sometimes these roles conflict with each other in interesting ways. If you’ve ever been pulled over by a traffic cop while your child is in the car you’ll know what I mean.

    This may come as a hard truth to you, RG, but in your relationship with Kumail and Emily you’re an audience member and they’re the performers. That’s the role you signed up for when you downloaded the podcast so that’s how they see you, and rightfully so. They’re doing all of the work in this relationship. They’re the ones who prepared a space and gained access to recording equipment. They’re the ones who showed up to a location with prepared topics and hit “record”. They’re the ones who were brave enough to discuss their thoughts an opinions while using their full names on that recording. They’re the ones who secured space on a website and posted this recording for people to hear. They’re the ones who do all of this consistently, week in and week out. That is their role as the performers in this relationship.

    Our role as the audience is to listen to it. That’s it and that’s all. Pretty cool for us, right? In many instances part of our role would be to pay for this entertainment that they’ve provided for us. This is not one of those cases. Even better for us, right?

    Considering our minimal contribution in this relationship, how much they put in, and how little we put in, do you see how someone on the performer side of the equation might find it strange that you’re asking them to put in even more?

    You want them to keep track of anyone who’s ever chosen to say something nice to them anonymously on the internet so that when they turn around and say something not so nice it’s not “taken out of context”. I might have taken a bit of creative license with your words there, but if I’ve boiled down what you’ve said correctly that seems to be what you’re asking of them. You want to cover the barbed wire on your fist in a few paragraphs of qualifier fluff about how great you think they are so that when you take a swing they’ll have their guard down and you can stick it to them where it really hurts. You want them to take your harsh words about how shitty you think this thing they put all this work into is, not as an audience member, but as an individual, as a friend even, a friendship you’ve proven to them with a track record of positive comments. But that’s not a friendship. From their perspective that’s them doing a huge load of work every week for your (the audience’s) benefit and you applauding. Why, now that you’re booing instead, would you expect them to treat you as a friend?

    To be frank, their interaction with their fans IS the show itself, and anything beyond that is them going above and beyond and being incredibly nice, not something that they’re obligated to do as performers. That’s like telling someone that they bought a plane ticket so they’re technically allowed on the plane, but they need to pay extra for a seat if they want to sit down. They’ve fulfilled their roles as performers and owe us nothing else and now you’re not only wishing for more, or even politely asking for more, you’re demanding more. You’re expressing your incredible FRUSTRATION with not getting more. You’re not their friend RG. Friendships are built by mutual choice; you chose to listen to their podcast, they did not choose to have you comment on it. They do what they do and they think what they think and you can choose to listen to it or not, but this hurt and anger you feel over them not meeting this expectation of friendship you have is a bit much. As with any relationship, friendship, audience/performer, or even romantic, you’re welcome to leave it at any time, but understand that you built this expectation of friendship yourself and expected someone else to help you maintain it. If it falls down, that’s not on them. You haven’t been slighted here, you’ve merely misunderstood the nature of the relationship and been hurt by your own misunderstanding.

    As these creative mediums get more intimate and we get to know the hosts of these podcasts better it gets gradually easier for us to blur the lines between performers and friends. I realize I may have come off as a dick and if that’s the case I apologize. I know you’re a sensitive guy and it’s not my intent to hurt your feelings. As I said before, these are things I’ve struggled with myself, so know that when I read your words I feel where you’re coming from. The above is the truth as I’ve learned it and as I see it. Make of it what you will.

  38. GooseGanja says:

    @RG – You really think what I said was trolling? It may have been if i spammed the same statement over and over again … but i didnt. Just expressed a feeling. You gettn a crush on me bro?

  39. RG says:

    You also have to consider the idea of single posts not being associated as a group. Maybe it’s overstepping some bounds in reality, but for the sake of simplicity, let’s compare the podcaster-listener relationship to a friendship.

    You develop that friendship through mutually-upbuilding comments to one another. When one of your friends who has been responsible for this buildup of positive feedback takes a step back and says, “Hey man, something seems different about you lately,” or perhaps, “Hey, I’m sorry, but what you said back there really pissed me off,” you’re most likely going to feel concern and sympathy for that friend and you’re going to want to listen to what they have to say. However, if somebody says that to you without the proper accrued mutual respect, you’re going to think it’s weird and out-of-place. To a friend, you can even say “OK, love you man, but right now, fuck you for what you’re saying” and get away with it. It’s pulling rank, and it’s reserved for rare occasions, but it doesn’t destroy a friendship to hear that (if it does, you’re probably not very good at being a friend).

    Now, from the other end of things, let’s look at it like it really is. Some of us are longtime fans and say lots of very positive things, but that goes unacknowledged. When we raise a complaint, we often feel like we’ve earned it, but they don’t know that because they don’t associate us with our past comments.

    But frankly, in this case, it seems Kumail and Emily associate a complaint–even one in which the commenter is legitimately offended at a generalization that was made, as was the case with GG–with trolling. A complaint from a fan isn’t trolling. Saying it is sort of dehumanizes the audience, and when that disconnect begins, it’s hard to recover from. You’re essentially saying, “I’m always going to be right and if you disagree you’re always going to be wrong, but let’s have fun listening to the podcast anyway!”

    Instead, if some time could be taken to try to analyze exactly who it is they’re talking to (and if comments can be padded with a little background that shows we’re not trolls, which is what I tried to do), then people would still get to be treated like people. I never said “You guys suck!” That’s trolling. Some might disagree with it, but personally I tried to give a little insight about what the podcast meant to me, but I was also FRUSTRATED, and to say that frustration can be expressed left and right on the podcast but not in direct communication is simply hypocritical. If a friend shat all over the Hobbit in that specific way, and they knew I loved it, it would be totally 100% rude.

    So, that’s the thing: it’s not a friendship. But wait, because that doesn’t necessarily mean what you think it means; when you apply ANOTHER reality to it, that it is also a product with a host-audience relationship, then frankly it only further compounds my point about responsibility for this stuff. The fact is, if it were really just exhaustion about irreverent trolls, I would GET where Kumail and Emily are coming from. But it’s not just that… it’s sensitivity about being told that there could possibly be anything wrong with the thing they’re doing, even by a dedicated fan. Even if I hadn’t expressed my frustration, and it was just a glowing thing that eventually said, “But can you just stop shitting on this one thing? You’ve made your point, and it makes me sad and takes my joy away,” THAT PART would have still been irritating to them. Even the other fans that defend people all over Nerdist can only really say, “IT’S A FREE PODCAST, DOUCHEBAG!” and there’s no actual comment on the humanity of the host-audience relationship.

    If this is just punk podcasting time and we’re all just gonna do what we want and not take no shit, man, then more power to them… but maybe somebody should get a little thicker skin and stop complaining about complaints. I’m sorry, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.

  40. Joe Friday says:

    I hear what you’re saying. Responding to negative behavior just encourages more negative behavior, and that the same is true of positive behavior. I think it’s important to consider it from their perspective as well, though. You hurt them. I’m sure you didn’t think that your words would have that kind of power, but they did.

    I think that we’re drawn to people in our lives that we admire for one reason or another, and then when we learn more about those people and see beyond the particular trait we admire we learn that those people have weaknesses and flaws as well as admirable traits, just like us. It’s easy to fall into the misconception that if someone is professionally funny, or a brilliant actor, or writes amazing songs that they must be as superlative in every aspect of their lives. It’s the music we like, or the comedy we like, but instead of saying that we’re fans of the music or the comedy we become fans of the people who made it; and that’s how we actually feel. We almost deify these people, forcing them onto pedestals and into these molds that we’ve created for them that when we see their human sides we feel betrayed, as if they’ve fooled us somehow or misrepresented themselves. But we’re the ones who said that they were different from us and better than us. Not them. It’s a dynamic that I don’t think they’re comfortable with either, because if they were then I think they would be a bit more understanding of, not the act of trolling itself, but the psychological dynamic behind trolling. It’s somewhat similar to the teenager/parent dynamic. We see them in what we subconsciously consider to be a position of authority so when we disagree with what they say it causes an instinctual sense of anger at the unfairness that they get to be more powerful than us even when they’re wrong (from our perspective). Our parents, and our entertainers, are just people. Different from us, yes, and sometimes more rich or more famous or more powerful. But still people like us with flaws and feelings. My thought is that if you or I did a podcast and shared an opinion that somebody disagreed with that we would hope that they would express themselves politely rather than attack us, for any number of reasons. Maybe not, but I think we would.

  41. Dr. AgoniZe says:

    Dan Harmon said he tried to make love to David Fincher.

  42. Dr. AgoniZe says:

    I think it was Sarah Silverman’s therapist that killed himself.

  43. Mikey says:

    Quick comment on the whole race of orcs thing from LOTR versus The Hobbit and the whole 3 movie debate.

    The orcs in The Hobbit are mostly goblins and a few pure basic orcs. The orcs sometimes call the goblins slaves (because they are of a lesser race); these are the bad guys we see at the Misty Mountains in the first hobbit movie and battle with the whole Fellowship in the middle of the first LOTR movie. Some are corrupted elves, men and/or dwarves and through evolution take different forms and shapes. Later in LOTR Saruman created half-breeds of men and orcs and Sauron created more half-breeds called the Uruk-hai therefore those larger races of orc would not show up in The Hobbit trilogy. So the goblins and orcs you see in The Hobbit are the original bad guys and look less human which means CG is needed, the later half-breed and big Uruk-hai in LOTR are more human-like which means you could film them with actual actors and stunt people.

    On the whole “The Hobbit does not warrant 3 movies” debate, you need to consider that these films are not just for the book The Hobbit, it also throws in events detailed in the appendices at the end of the Return of the King book and a few things in “Unfished Tales”. The Appendices detail things that happen before, during, and after The Hobbit. There are points in The Hobbit where Gandalf leaves the dwarves, it is not explained why in the Hobbit book, but in the appendices Tolkien explains what Gandalf’s adventure during that time was and the biggest reason for including that story in these films is that it ties directly into The Lord of the Rings

    Perhaps if these movies were called “The Hobbit plus Unfinished Tales and more”, it would make more sense (although it’s not as catchy)

  44. GooseGanja says:

    @Joe – BTW … i guess Kumail and Emily tweeted about me yesterday … weird … its like they encourage negatives more than positives.

  45. gooseganja says:

    @joe friday – Yeah … goatofthewoods said it best when he said i commented immediately after listening so i was typing with unchecked emotion. I regret cursing but a day later n no bad emotions now today … my points or opinions still stand in my mind. Offended .. no, Frustrated .. yes. Its like your BFF telling you that u suck n are a racist.

  46. Edo says:

    Thnx nice show. I never really get why people would be offended if they don’t share the same taste.

  47. Joe Friday says:

    Definitely not. They never do. I don’t think that’s an excuse to be rude and insulting in order to get the attention and interaction, though. It would certainly be nice if there were a bit more encouragement of positive feedback and polite/insightful criticim here rather than the trollfeast they usually set the table with. That said, I think part of maturing and becoming a 3-dimensional person is being more comfortable with accepting what other people are and what they’re willing to give rather than bitching and moaning about what they’re not giving and pushing them to be what you think they should be. It’s something I struggle with as well.

  48. gooseganja says:

    This is out of total inexperience … but do you guys think they would have responded to a posotive comment? Just a thought.

  49. RG says:

    DUDE. I get the point, and I told you: it’s easier said than done. My actual point would not have been conveyed any other way. It could have been much worse. Leave it alone.

  50. goatofthewoods says:

    @RG Honesty and kindess are not mutually exclusive. Having an emotional reaction does not mean you must put all of that emotion into a response. Respecting people’s opinions doesn’t mean you can’t voice opinions of your own. I don’t know that you understood the point of any of my comments. That’s okay. Have a nice night.